Tropical European Astrology differences with Vedic Jyotisha

At that point, the tropical astrological tradition with its faulty Ayanamsha will collapse, and more accurate astrologies such as Jyotisha will take their place.

Q: I have considerable training in western astrology, having studied with a known teacher for years. These Jyotisha calculations are so different that they describe me as a different person! Now I have to process being a whole different person! That' s a total exaggeration, and mind you this is not a complaintandit' s just rather fascinating that I' ve gone around for twenty years with a certain spiritual model of myself, or more thinking in terms of certain astrological influences, and now I' m being invited to seriously reconsider the matter. It's liberating but also I am resisting it.

A: About being a and "new person" in Jyotisha. Yes, it's challenging to switch personality profiles. The mind becomes habituated.

It's quite important in the beginning to resist mixing the two systems. I think tropical astrology has poetic value and Jyotisha has predictive value; at some point the student has to choose a path.

From a person culturally accustomed to tropical archetypes, encountering Jyotisha for the first time:

Q: I've been reading tropical astrology books and thinking of myself as " A Gemini" for forty years. I think "Gemini" describes my personality pretty well. I'm slender... attractive and intelligent... love new experiences... restless in romance... etc.

However, I just had a Jyotisha reading from you and it blew me away with its accuracy. So now I'm thinking of myself as "a Taurus" instead.

We are having a full moon this weekend. Should I think of it as occurring in Scorpio/Taurus or in Libra/Aries? Either way, it's affecting me - but the interpretations would be *so* different because of the different energies of the signs.

A: Applying western archetypal tropical thinking to a Jyotisha chart will produce very confusing and disappointing results

To enjoy the view from both systems, we need to understand at the outset that Jyotisha thinking is apples-and-oranges different from the western model you are accustomed to. So let's not carry the archetypal thinking into Jyotisha and start thinking of yourself as "a Taurus". You're not "a Taurus" or "Sign-X". Astrology is just not that simple.

Jyotisha sees the incarnation as a complex set of yogas that bring past-life credit and debit items into the current life for rebalancing. These items do not coagulate, as it were, into archetypes in the western sense. They are embedded in your life schedule at birth. They rise up into material manifestation during a certain time period. Then they fade into the reflective background of your life. The "personality" in Jyotisha is a minor concern, although " ego" is a strong function of Surya the Sun .

Western astrology creates a psychological profile using typological generalizations such as "you are a Gemini" (usually because of some relatively trivial placement like Sun in tropical Gemini). Then, when a full Moon occurs in Gemini, the tropical tradition predicts that"Full moon will intensify your Gemini-ness". It's very vague- more poetry than prediction.

Archetypal thinking is profoundly holistic. That's a blessing for many toxically positivistic westerners, who find in this deep human psychology their only conceptual connection to the greater universe. I'm all for it!

But archetypes don't tell us anything about the evolution of events over time. Archetypes are eternal.

As I mentioned, if a naturally spiritual person is looking for a reason to be especially self-aware, and they expect to get good results from introspection on the full Moon day, because of some putative planetary effect, then we still have a significant benefit because they have in fact turned inward looking for truth.

By turning inward, they have advanced along the spiritual path. I certainly support that!

Jyotisha logic is quite different. The sign in which a planet is located is only one part of that planet's behavior. The first power of a planet is its house lordship. The second power is the aspect rays it shines on the other planets and houses, and the aspects it receives from other planets. Its third power is its distance from the Moon and from the ascendant. We also consider whether the planet is in the sign of a friend or an enemy, a sign of exaltationor fall, and several other considerations. Furthermore the Nakshatra qualities and the ruling deities should be known. All of this thinking must happen before the Jyotishi first opens his/her mouth to speak!

Furthermore, signs have no fixed " innate" qualities in Jyotisha as they do in Ptolemaic astrology. Jyotisha would never say anything so typologically simplistic as " you are a Gemini" even if you have five planets in Mithuna (Gemini), because the signs behave according to the disposition of their rulers, not according to any innate qualities. Therefore a Sun in Gemini in one chart may behave entirely differently from a Sun in Gemini in another chart. It is impossible to generalize. Western astrological books are filled with cover-to-cover generalizations. (Often lovely, poetic, beautifully narrated generalizations... but never specific enough to ground a prediction)

Jyotisha logic does (or can) use psychological profiling to describe the person's overall disposition, but the profile is much more complex than the common western typological style.

Jyotisha considers at least the two primary charts, rashi and navamsha, in even the first preliminary reading. For special questions of career, children, health, education, there are special "varga" or divisional charts that show a specialized view of the key planets.

For example, career powers emerge largely from the 7th and 10th house lords in the radixi chart. A western tropical career profile might check Sun, Moon, and Midheaven ... and say something like " you are a Gemini with Aries rising so you should be a well-paid salesperson for a big corporation." In Jyotisha, to evaluate career properly, one must evaluate at the very least, the behavior of the rashi Sun, rashi 7th and tenth lords, AND lord of the 10th navamsha along with the position of rashi 7th and tenth lords in navamsha.

he dasha/bhukti defines the dominant pattern of events. The native could easily have a poorly placed Saturn, inauspicious 10th lord or other debility and be in a struggling small business with quite small income. It's actually the 2nd and 11th lords that determine income. Or one could be enduring an unfavorable dasha, even with good natal leadership planets, and be quite oppressed in career for many years - perhaps achieving recognition only very late in life. Jyotisha is much more complex and complete - and accurate.

In the case of full moon effect, it matters relatively little what "sign" the full moon occupies by transit. It matters relatively little whether the sign itself is Gemini/Sagittarius or Scorpio/Taurus.

If so, the matters of life which those planets control will be intensified during the full Moon. Otherwise it will be business as usual.

here are of course some general effects of Moon transiting ("gochara") through the 7th rashi (natal chart) house. These general effects are adjusted and sometimes completely negated by other characteristics of aspecting planets. However, to give you an overall idea, there is some truth to what Bepin Behari (an Indian author who writes about Jyotisha for western readers) says about this particular generality:

"Good time to tend to personal relationships where you can express yourself in a manner more emotional than usual.

The transit may result in marriage, relating with opponents, loved ones, and the opposite sex from whom you will get cooperation and security.

Confrontation with women both positive and negative are likely to be more intense.

Good friends, meeting with relatives, pleasures of the bed, good food and clothes, gain of vehicle, of pleasure trips, money and happiness."

Now, the Moon transits 7th house of marriage once every month, and it is Full in transit once per year. Obviously the person will not marry every month or every year. But if many other factors line up, then the Full Moon transit could be the straw that broke the camel's back.

In your personal case, this full Moon is likely to give more intense socialization than usual, especially in a work-related context like socializing with other professional women and making creative future plans with them. Transiting 6 houses from the bhukti lord Mercury, this Moon could raise animosity about money so it is a very poor time to ask for a loan.

When women are talking together during this full Moon you will hear about interesting things like education and business but also about health and financial problems due to Moon's moving 6th from Mercury.

Moon full gochara your 9th navamsha would intensify the emotional responsiveness/reactivity of the 3rd husband if there was one. It would exacerbate emotional problems in a younger sibling of the first husband.

Note to a reader who wanted to know about the terrible and earth-shaking expected effects of the "harmonic conversion" caused by the lunar eclipse [in Vedic Aries] in October, 2003.

The anxious reader forwarded a long email string of wild predictions for inner and outer catastrophic change in the month of November, based on the tropical sign and degree of the moment of eclipse. Each fearful prediction was wilder than the last!

Lunar eclipses are quite frequent, and they affect different people differently. Most normal adults will not notice any change whatsoever in their material lives, as a result of this eclipse of the full moon in early November (just passed last week).

In the19th and 20th centuries, medicine, law, and teaching were "professionalized" in the west when society imposed rules for educational training and licensing exams. Some fine day I hope that astrology will professionalize too.

Until then we will be pestered by all types of half-literate quacks trotting out small, disjointed pieces of the great Vidya of Jyotisha - selling astrological snake oil, preying on people's fears and vanities, and destroying the trust of all rational people in this magnificent gift from the Rishis.

BPL sez: this same foolishness has come around again in the "2012" predictions. People will believe anything! Please read up on Cult thinking, negative expectations, and eschatological fantasies before investing a molecule of interest in any of these global catastrophe "predictions".

Eschatology means "end of the world" visions which are psychotic. However, the fact that end-of-the-world movements have arisen and been disproved by the continuation of civilization on a steady basis throughout history does not stop individuals and groups lead by manipulative charismatic leaders from getting sucked into them.

The Jyotisha nativities of individuals and collectives such as nation-states, are generally accurate and events can be timed by the Vimshottari Dasha with confidence. Please note that as a general trend things are getting better not worse globally, with most of the crises of the birth of the new era being nearly behind us. However individuals will continue to project their personal trauma onto the world stage and that is where these goofy "predictions" come from -- individual psyche's in trouble.)

The astrological fact is that one single planetary effect will never control a person, family, or nation. We always look for a MINIMUM combination (yoga) of three effects:

If your astrological advisors are making predictions on the basis of AT LEAST these three factors (and their astronomical calculations are correct) then feel comfortable that you are receiving the advice of a professional.

If their sage advice is based on any less than these three factors, you are being sentimentally swayed by a well-meaning poet - or worse.

Q:Dear Mrs. Lama, Thank you for your site. It is educative and simple to understand and addresses many interesting topics of astrology. I wanted to ask would it be possible to read your opinion on debilitated and exalted planets in western and Vedic tradition? If I have understood correctly from your posts – you consider western astrology to be at least intuitively correct - regarding psychology issues etc. Personally I think that comparing my western chart with my Vedic horoscope they both are quite compatible – yes, there are different combinations, but they both indicate many similar themes. Except one thing. How would you comment the value of interpretation of a western chart where a planet is exalted (Venus in Libra, conjunct Spica – so very positive) but the same planet is debilitated in Vedic horoscope (Venus in Virgo, both Radix and Navamsha – so very negative?). Does it mean that in this case the western horoscope is completely wrong? So I would have to ignore everything in it actually? I would be really grateful to read your opinion about the cases when a planet in western and Vedic horoscopes receives opposite interpretation. Thank you,

It is a good question that you ask, and a common one for western beginners in Jyotisha.

Since I do not practice western astrology, I could not comment upon a tropical style nativity.

However, as a matter of practice, I would say that it is not a good idea to mix the interpretive principles of the two traditions. Pick one or the other to make a consistent reading: they are not equivalent systems, therefore they cannot be compared or mix-and-match.

Naturally I prefer Jyotisha for its predictive capabilities but if a person wishes to use the tropical principles it seems best to simply stick to those tropical principles without inserting rules from an outside system like Jyotisha.

Similarly I recommend against mixing Jyotisha with Babylonian, Egyptian, Vietnamese, Chinese, Tibetan, or other Buddhism-related astrologies. Wait until you have learned the scripture of each system before applying its rules to a nativity.

The problem of mixing systems in astrology is similar to the "false cognate" problem of mixing vocabularies in two related languages.

All nine graha and their internal drishti plus the dominant lords of the dasha timeline must be considered before offering a prediction.

The question to ask yourself is whether your life experience in the matters of Shukra - wealth, relationships, beauty, women - matches the Jyotisha signification of neechcha Shukra or not.

So, is Shukra properly understood as negative or positive in the context of your complete nativity?

You will only know after you correctly apply the principles of astrological system of your choice - without mixing up any two systems.

Hello, I'm in the process of learning astrology and my chart. ... My Sun is at the end of Pisces in Lahiri and at the beginning of Aries in Raman. My Mars in my Navamsha is in 1st house Aries in Lahiri and 12th house Aries in Raman. A lot of my chart is borderline. I find myself both competitive and artistic/philosophical so its hard to distinguish which works better for me. Is there some distinction in my chart that I could more easily figure this out?

IMO, Raman ayanamsha doesn't work very well in practice. Shri Raman did a great service to international Jyotishi by writing out so much of his Jyotisha knowledge in English, but his unique Ayanamsha is problematic. Majority of Jyotishi use Lahiri. It works.

Since no one is objective about one's own personality, it will be frustrating for a beginner to try to match graha characteristics to personality traits such as " artistic", on the western psychological model.

In Jyotisha, artistic abilities will emerge from numerous yogas (e.g., combinations of Shukra + Shani) without reference to any particular rashi. Also, in Jyotisha, Surya is not connected with 'art' in any rashi. Rather, Surya (Vishnu) represents reasoning power and moral decisions. Shukra represents balance and design; the stronger Shukra gets, the stronger one's ability to detect and express beauty. Shukra is at maximum beauty-power in the rashi of Meena (Pisces).

Making the transition into a new trait typology can be disorienting for folks accustomed to the western astrological-psychology system. For that reason, you might get a stronger interpretive foothold by ignoring personality traits at first, and starting with the behavior of radix house lords in the Vimshottari dasha. The houses have pretty much the same significations in both tropical and Jyotisha.

First, you'll need to make a command decision re: choosing an ayanamsha. ( I recommend Lahiri as the mainstream choice.) After that decision is made, examine the Vimshottari dasha, and run some tests.

Do the events which have already happened in your life match up with the behavior of the house lords? I.e.,

Also use the house system to try to characterize your relatives, people you know well. E.g.,

Your own siblings are well-known and probably one can be more objective about their " traits". Count the number of houses to various siblings and then ask the question, should the graha occupy this rashi to correctly define this person?

Keep matching up these items for well-known close family members. Assign rashi qualities to them, not to oneself.

Jyotisha does accommodate western-style personality typologies (I've written tons of them on www.barbarapijan.com ) but the heart of Jyotisha is the Vimshottari timing. If the basic timeline of events lines up properly, then you can proceed to fine-tune the "quality" of the events through assigning the proper rashi/ drishti to the graha. But assigning qualities should be step-2, to avoid getting stuck in the trait-typology confusion during the transition from western-tropical into Jyotisha.

while I m surfing found you. I like tooo too much every page. thanks really for your beautiful work for jyotisha

I m astrologer since 1992 western astro origin but since 3 years I turned my face to vedic astrology totally and I m very glad indeed.

sometimes I am thinging that most of us have been cheated by western tropikal zodiac. How possible is this. how come then Ptolemy? Liliy? or Ebu Massar? or Maasallah? all medieval techniques?

your site is tooo big to finish all complete would it be possible to inform me when you write something new:?

Who Is a Hindu?

"Acceptance of the Vedas with reverence; recognition of the fact that the means or ways to salvation are diverse; and the realization of the truth that the number of gods to be worshiped is large, that indeed is the distinguishing feature of the Hindu religion." B.G. Tilak's definition of what makes one a basic Hindu, as quoted by India's Supreme Court. On July 2, 1995, the Court referred to it as an "adequate and satisfactory formula."

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=4326Thanks again, best regards :) rozi tyman from Istanbul

Thanks very much for your compliments on the Jyotisha learning materials at www.barbarapijan.com

I am happy to know that you have "switched" from using the tropical astrological computations, toward using the Jyotisha-tradition computations. It is indeed a tragedy that a simple astronomical observation error in Alexandria in the fourth century of the common era, could have generated millennia of confusion (the 'tropical system'.)

But, it seems like that is indeed what happened. At the collapse of western civilization (at the very 'bottom' of the recent Kali Yuga) all the great world libraries were lost, and the very few books which survived became institutionalized as the core texts of civilization. Including, unfortunately, the wrong claim by one 'Ptolemy' that the zero point of Aries does not move!

Luckily, the oral tradition of Brahmin priests, which does not rely for the integrity of knowledge transmission on writing, but rather on the pure grammar of Sanskrita language, was available during these terrible dark centuries. Oral chanting by priests who perhaps did not comprehend the meaning but who were committed to sustaining the knowledge tradition, kept the lights of Jyotisha burning for thousands of years.

The Jyotisha tradition as we have it currently is not perfect, but it does form a reliable basis for reconstitution of this massive knowledge base. The main task with rehabilitating Jyotisha (as I see it) is to winnow out the huge accrual of superstitious belief and ritual practice which has accrued to the pure tradition during the long, dark centuries of ignorance and fear.

The tropical tradition is probably not much of a basis for the reconstruction work now being undertaken worldwide, to recover the ancient mystery traditions, eldritch technologies, and long-buried sources of extraordinary wisdom. IMO it is probably best to just "dump and run" - leaving the tropical tradition in the history books, as a curiosity for scholars. It does not have much predictive or interpretive utility.

For experienced astrologers like yourself, Jyotisha future predictions are much more satisfying. When properly understood (via both logical analysis and reflective intuition) I believe that Jyotisha principles can explain past events and predict future events with some accuracy.

With luck, I will find time to reorganize my website some day, and at that time perhaps I will be able to mark 'new' writing so that readers can find it easily. For the moment the website design is old and not very efficient. (But it is, as you mention, quite pretty!) Currently I work many hours each week as a university instructor and I am also raising a family - so the prognosis for improving the website seems rather bleak! Yet I'll keep reader's requests in mind, and eventually readers will see improvements.

Dalai Lama talks about Buddhist teachings put to use as psychology:

"It is possible to understand the Buddhist teachings as a method of psychological healing, comparable to psychotherapy, that teaches us how we can master destructive forces like anger, envy, and greed.

Human beings seem to be a bundle of different qualities and psychological processes. We should attentively examine our qualities and be alertly aware of our experiences in order to recognize what we truly feel and think. At the same time, the personality of human beings is not seen as a unified whole.

According to these teachings, the heart of consciousness is composed of various elements, the five types of attachment, or skandhas:

body,
sensations,
perceptions,
instinctual forces,
And consciousness.

These inner forces impart the false concept of an ego-consciousness.

The basic problem of emotional disorders therefore lies in a false concept of identity.

This I-blindness should therefore be abolished through self-study.... The goal is not self-realization but selflessness.

~~ H.H. Dalai Lama with Felizitas Von Schonborn. (2005). Path of Wisdom, Path of Peace. Foreword by Wei Jingsheng; Crossroad Publishing Co.

"Southern" School of Tropical Astrology

(This charming piece has been around for years, but I think it represents some of the best wisdom available from newspaper astrology!)

OKRA (Dec 22 - Jan 20) Although you appear crude, you are actually very slick on the inside. Okras have tremendous influence. An older Okra can look back over his life and see the seeds of his influence everywhere. Stay away from Moon Pies.

CHITLIN (Jan 21 - Feb 19) Chitlins come from humble backgrounds. A chitlin, however, can make something of himself if he's motivated and has lots of seasoning. In dealing with Chitlins, be careful. They can erupt like Vesuvius. Chitlins are best with Catfish and Okra.

BOLL WEEVIL (Feb 20 - Mar 20) You have an overwhelming curiosity. You're unsatisfied with the surface of things, and you feel the need to bore deep into the interior of everything. Needless to say, you are very intense and driven as if you had some inner hunger. Nobody in their right mind is going to marry you, so don't worry about it.

MOON PIE (Mar 21 - Apr 20) You're the type that spends a lot of time on the front porch. It's a cinch to recognize the physical appearance of Moon Pies. Big and round are the key words here. You should marry anybody who you can get remotely interested in the idea. It's not going to be easy. This might be the year to think about aerobics. Or - maybe not.

POSSUM (Apr 21 - May 21) When confronted with life's difficulties, possums have a marked tendency to withdraw and develop a don't-bother-me-about-it attitude. Sometimes you become so withdrawn, people actually think you're dead. This strategy is probably not psychologically healthy, but seems to work for you. One day, however, it won't work and you may find your problems actually running you over.

CRAWFISH (May 22 - June 21) Crawfish is a water sign. If you work in an office, you're always hanging around the water cooler. Crawfish prefer the beach to the mountains, the pool to the golf course, the bathtub to the living room. You tend to be not particularly attractive physically, but you have very, very good heads.

COLLARDS (June 22 - July 23) Collards have a genius for communication. They love to get in the " melting pot" of life and share their essence with the essence of those around them. Collards make good social workers, psychologists, and baseball managers. As far as your personal life goes, if you are Collards, stay away from Moon Pies. It just won't work. Save yourself a lot of heartache.

CATFISH (July 24 - Aug 23) Catfish are traditional ists in matters of the heart, although one's whiskers may cause problems for loved ones. You catfish are never easy people to understand. You prefer the muddy bottoms to the clear surface of life. Above all else, Catfish should stay away from Moon Pies.

GRITS (Aug 24 - Sept 23) Your highest aim is to be with others like yourself. You like to huddle together with a big crowd of other Grits. You love to travel though, so maybe you should think about joining a club. Where do you like to go? Anywhere they have cheese or gravy or bacon or butter or eggs. If you can go somewhere where they have all these things, that serves you well.

BOILED PEANUTS (Sept 24 - Oct 23) You have a passionate desire to help your fellow man. Unfortunately, those who know you best - your friends and loved ones - may find that your personality is much too salty, and their criticism will probably affect you deeply because you are really much softer than you appear. You should go right ahead and marry anybody you want to because in a certain way, yours is a charmed life. On the road of life, you can be sure that people will always pull over and stop for you.

BUTTER BEAN (Oct 24 - Nov 22) Always invite a Butter Bean because Butter Beans get along well with everybody. You, as a Butter Bean, should be proud. You've grown on the vine of life and you feel at home no matter what the setting. You can sit next to anybody. However, you, too, shouldn't have anything to do with Moon Pies.

ARMADILLO (Nov 23 - Dec 21) You have a tendency to develop a tough exterior, but you are actually quite gentle. A good evening for you? Old friends, a fire, some roots, fruit, worms and insects. You are a throwback. You're not concerned with today's fashions and trends. You're not concerned with anything about today. You're really almost prehistoric in your interests and behavior patterns. You probably want to marry another Armadillo, but Possum is another somewhat kinky, mating possibility.